Legalism vs Lawlessness – Part 2
I have more to say on this topic, but wanted to make it a seperate post because it is slightly different. I want us to try and define what ‘legalism’ and ‘lawlessness’ might look like in our culture.
Now I would love to come out here with some rash statements to provoke discussion. I’d love to say something like 90% of Christians are going to hell and see the response i would get…BUT firstly, I don’t believe this to be the case and secondly…I hate confrontation! So me a rash statements that provoke discussion don’t really work. I just hope the questions I raise speak for themselves!
The reason I am so interested in this is because I get the feeling that the church I am at now holds a lot stricter view than my previous church. So because of this I am being strongly challenged and the way my mind works is through grappling with an issue by hearing sound arguments for many different viewpoints. So please, help me out! I guess the reason I ask is so if I hold a view different to some people…I need to know WHY I hold that view.
I suppose what i will type here is a few statements that may or may not be the position I hold. But they are a position that some Christians definately hold and I’d like to hear people’s opinions on them!
1. If a movie has large amounts of swearing, you should avoid it.
2. If a movie deals with witchcraft, spells, demons etc, then stear clear.
3. If a movie contains nudity, stear clear.
4. If a movie is rated M, or more likely MA, then it is probably not something a good Christian would watch.
5. Dancing dirty at a nightclub is not on.
6. Downloading pirated music is not on.
7. Downloading pirated TV shows is not on.
8. Being involved, regularly, in activities that cause people to sin and not saying anything about this is not what Christians should do.
I will share opinions myself at a later date. For now I will leave this here. What are your thoughts? Are the above statements too legalistic, or do they just deal with lawlessness?
July 31, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I like what you’re saying Middo. There is definitely more to being a Christian than just crossing a line.
Some of the things you’ve written I either do now or have done in the past to steer clear of temptation and sin.
I think the most important thing is to have an attitude of love and grace in it all. You could do all these things yet hold bitterness and resentment in your heart.
How about some others?
Do I gossip?
Do I show love to everyone I meet?
Am I overeating?
Do I let my finances control me?
Anyway, keep challenging yourself and remember above all else God is wildly in love with you.
July 31, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Good post Middo. Some of this has come up in my sphere recently. We had a discussion on fearing God and the lack of it today. I personally tend to or prefer to substitute respect (you mention reverence) for fear in biblical context.
Anyways I have had issues with drawing the line throughout my christian walk. It’s only the last year that I have really started abstaining from things that I thought were unhealthy for me (i.e. led me to sin). It’s been a fantastic experience.
I also agree with Gaz about having an attitude of love and grace and I chuck in compassion in alll things. Sometimes that means having to confront people too. But sometimes just being there, silent but strong is the best example. I like you am not a lover of confrontation.
I also believe that as christians we shouldn’t separate ourselves from the world, or shelter ourselves too much. Jesus didn’t do this, he got dirty.
Maybe I suggesting a dangerous tight rope act or one foot in, one foot out.
August 1, 2008 at 8:56 am
“I also believe that as christians we shouldn’t separate ourselves from the world, or shelter ourselves too much. Jesus didn’t do this, he got dirty.”
This is definately the ‘risk’ of legalism, getting so caught up in “i can’t do this’ that all we end up doing is withdrawing entirely from everything. If the goal was ONLY personal righteousness, then this would work PERFECTLY. However, since God called us to mission…the line blurs a fair bit.
August 1, 2008 at 9:52 am
True. I think this was what was so powerful about Jesus’ ministry. Unfortunately recently I think the “Church” in general has been too “clean”. Christians have got a reputation for sitting back and judging, or telling people how they should behave.
Jesus went out and lived life with people. Lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes, he lived with them and connected with them. He didn’t judge them, but loved them, without compromising himself. That’s why I think he was such an awesome and effective minister at the time. Through him people saw there was something better for themselves. They weren’t old they were evil and would burn in hell if they didn’t repent. How often does that work?
My 2 bobs.
August 1, 2008 at 10:15 am
“He didn’t judge them, but loved them, without compromising himself.”
And I guess that is the key.
I should probably at this point say that one significant conversation is largely driving my thinking in this area.
Recently a member from my church attended the bucks night for his son. Everybody in attendance was Christian. One of the main activities for the night was watching a movie. Now, I really wish the member could name the movie so I knew what he is referring to, but I can’t. But his point was that the vast majority of the movie involved drug use, swearing and nudity(his words…hence why I’d like to know which movie it was).
He tried to leave, but couldn’t cause his son was his ride home. He felt like he ’should’ have spoken up and told them to stop the movie because it wasn’t appropriate for Christians to watch.
He has spoken to me a fair bit about it (because he assumes I agree) however I am not sure, since I don’t know the movie. If it is as bad as he makes it sound, then it MUST have been rated R, but I doubt this.
My main ‘difficulty’ is that, to be honest, I have viewed many movies with swearing and nudity, I’ll admit it. My general practise is to ‘try’ and stay away from movies with nudity, and if I happen to find myself watching one (with others, obviously) then i look away or leave the room for that scene. Swearing, on the other hand, doesn’t bother me. Drug use on movies also doesn’t phase me. However, can I actually justify this?
By this I mean, I definately wouldn’t have a problem with these things if I was at a not yet Christians place. I would just continue my usual practise. But what reason does a group of Christians have for watching this? My argument with not yet saved people is ‘I am just in their culture, so I can’t try and control everything’ but…as a Christian leader and teacher, how can I justify it in a Christian setting? Because I have many times been with other Christians watching this type of movie…yet right now I’d struggle to stand up and argue FOR it.
Any thoughts from you guys?
August 1, 2008 at 9:38 pm
I remember when I was 23, I was horrified when I saw some Christians going to a karaoke night, and drinking beer…..
I might still be horrified at the thought of going to a karoake bar….but that is for entirely different reasons
(said as I drink my Tooheys New)
So maybe we need to tread carefully. What we bang on about, may just be something we see differently as we mature….certainly true for me. I dont want to be sinful, but nor do I want to be a pharisee….
August 1, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Interesting Middo. I’m gonna have to think about this. I personally (and as a christian) don’t have a problem with swearing, nudity or drug use in movies. Why should a christian not?
I don’t swear much, and try to refrain from it. I definately don’t do drugs (except alcohol) and I don’t do public nudity
, even on weekends. Watching movies with this sort of stuff in it doesn’t make me want to do drugs, etc.
If anything it usually makes me want to do this stuff less. I don’t think watching actors portraying people doing heroin (for example) makes me anymore likely to give it a try. Quite the opposite.
So why shouldn’t we watch this stuff as christians for entertainment? Look I must say I don’t watch movies like saw and the hostel. I think they are just sick and I don’t want to watch these. But I’m sure if I did watch them I wouldn’t want to kill people horribly.
I may be missing the point a bit. So do you know what your friends problem was? Did he feel by watching this movie he was condoning drugs, nudity, etc?
I personally don’t think so.
Sure there’s a line say between a bit of nudity in a movie and porn. Or say someone being murdered in a movie and watching a snuff film.
But why shouldn’t christians watch movies like this? Where do you draw the line? Can we watch violent movies? The Bible contains a fair bit of violence.
I’m gonna have to think about this and maybe you guys could help by explaining it to me. I’m a bit slow sometimes
August 2, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I find this hard simply because…well i have realised I don’t agree with him! And basically…for the exact same reasons you listed. HOWEVER his (and most people at my church I think) argument is about the ‘hating what God hates’ and a heap of other versus. I really couldn’t do the argument justice, so I won’t even try.
Its prob the ‘oh no, conflict ahead’ button within me flaring because I can guarantee this ‘area’ will be an area of contention in the future. And I am just trying to work out a sound defense for my opinion. Basically what you have described Pete is how i feel…but it is contrary to most people I have come into contact with at my church (sound familiar for you?:D) so ‘when’ I have to disagree with them, i want to have a good reason for it.
August 2, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Ah. I get it. I do occasionally run into this sort of thing
I think you have to separate entertainment from reality. God doesn’t hate movies with swearing, nudity, sex, killing, violence, etc. The same as God doesn’t hate ethanol, sex, violence, etc.
For example no one would argue sex between a married consenting couple is hated by God. Rape however is bad. God doesn’t hate sex. Sex isn’t bad. It can’t be. Sex is neither Good or evil. Ethanol or alcohol is bad, but drinking rediculous amounts is not good. It’s all about degrees. Guns are neither good or bad. It’s their application and the intent of their use with can be judged as being good or bad.
So wot is bad about drugs use in a movie? It doesn’t lead people to take drugs. And if anyone argues that, I think they have a screw loose and a poor grip on reality.
God doesn’t hate things, he hates sin. God doesn’t hate porn movies, surely he hates the influence they might have on people, the damage that it causes them.
Saying that, if for you personally, watching a movie with a “normal” degree of nudity or drug use (I’m using normal as stuff that would say be on a free to air TV station) is likely to cause you to sin, or affects your relationship with God, by all means abstain. But that’s a personal choice. In my opinion forget the preaching to others about it. That’s moving into being judgemental, i.e. you deciding that you don’t like it so everyone should be the same.
I don’t know if that’s all that helpful for you though middo
August 2, 2008 at 10:16 pm
This post reminded me of the ‘liberty garden’ issue. I, as a woman for example, can watch a movie with sex, drugs and whatever in it and not be tempted to follow suit in real life. However, I know for some of my male friends, watching a movie with sex scenes can evoke all sorts of thoughts in their head. I know because they told me and turned away from the movie when those scenes were on. They didn’t tell us to turn the movie off but asked that we respect their views and decision to abstain.
It’s hard and as you said there is no distinct line and everyone has their own personal convictions based on temptation, past experience etc. Maybe it’s about looking hard at ourselves and ask why we’re sometimes desensitized by what we see on the box. Perhaps it’s because I see so much swearing etc around me all the time that it’s no different to seeing it in a movie. Does a movie full of murder make me want to murder? Of course not and I don’t see it wrong to watch such a movie but I do have to ask myself why I was drawn to such a movie in the first place.
August 2, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Oh and karaoke bars ROCK!
I had both beer and karaoke on my hens night – was great
August 4, 2008 at 8:42 am
Good thoughts guys!
What I find interesting (and it is probably from how I’ve worded it) is how we are talking about it ‘causing people to sin’ etc. This is always how i have thought about these things, if they may cause you to sin…abstain.
What is interesting is…I actually don’t think this is the argument from my friends. Whether it causes you to sin or not is not the point, its merely ‘watching’ or being involved in what i guess you could call ‘unsanitary’ things. And it is due to this that I more and more realise I do stringly disagree.
I sense a very strong withdrawal mentality. Now if personal righteousness was the goal(and I think i’ve said this) then GREAT. But our God calls us to missional engagement. Monks ‘withdrew’ for their own righteousness(and have provided us with many, many great insights because of this) but this is not the call on ALL our lives, for most of us we have to GO to the unsanitary places, shine God’s light and preach his gospel.
I definately feel much better about this all now having had time to kick it around for a while:)
August 8, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I’ve just enjoyed reading the post and comments. I don’t feel the need to comment on it as a lot of my thoughts have been aired already!
Just letting you know that I AM keeping base with you middo
I do read and enjoy your writings
August 8, 2008 at 2:00 pm
oh, and you’d be very proud of us! we removed those horrible christmas tree things in our backyard (the same as the 12 we removed with you in the front) and we removed the 2 bottlebrushes in our front yard!!
YAYY!!!!
August 8, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Wow, that’s a fair effort Bek! Well done team:)
Will have to stop by again when I am up next, see how it is all looking…oh and to catch up:P
You must be getting pretty damned excited by now?!
August 14, 2008 at 9:30 am
[...] James Middleton’s Disciple of The Way is one of my regular reads. This time around James presents a post titled Legalism vs Lawlessness – Part 2. [...]
August 14, 2008 at 10:10 am
[...] Just a quick note to let you know that Rodney Olsen is hosting the latest Christian Blog Carnival to which I entered my Legalism vs Lawlessness – Part 2 post. [...]
August 18, 2008 at 7:41 am
Hey Middo, some more thoughts on this particular thread I had after chatting to my dad on the weekend.
Mark 7:15
there is nothing from without a man, that giong into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of a man are those that defile the man.
1 Corinthians 5:9
I wrote to you in my epistle to have no company with forincators; not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must needs go out of the world: …etc
The Pharisaic position in Jesus’ time was one where they closed their eyes to the unclean, to gentiles, to social outcasts, etc. Separation from society doesn’t lead to righteousness, but it can lead to self-righteousness. This was something I think Jesus came to turn around.
Unfortunately self righteous separation from society wasn’t only practiced by the pharisee’s. It’s happened throught history practiced by different denominations and still happens today